Happy Halloween!!! (a.k.a. The Gun Debate Thread)

Waucod Meesman · Post by **Waucod Meesman** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:06 pm

off topic?
so what are you guys that are doing something gonna be? I'm gonna be Buddy Holly at the party I'm going to

Leviathen · Post by **Leviathen** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:34 pm

Erougn wrote:Don't worry gesro, we have proven our point with GB, and if Canada was gonna be the 51st state we'd already have it.

And don't confuse context with content. The second amendment wasn't written to protect us from a half assed invasion from an empire in decline, it was written to provide us the freedom to defend our land from ANY tyrant.

waitwaitwait. okay... first off, war of 1812 was started by the US, they were trying to invade Canada and they failed, it was not an invasion of GB to the US, they were pretty caught up in Europe with Napoleon, they didn't really care too much what was happening here.

Second off, in the stage of international law we are in, battles can no longer be fought for control of territory. It is the same stage of international law that does make the second ammendment obsolete. There are so many damn organizations that prevent a tyrant from ever taking over your country, it is not going to happen, someone else has it govered, the pistol in your bedroom isn't going to help it.

And the argument that the bad guys have a weapon so I need to protect myself with my weapon is rediculous. Does no one learn from the past? How can you justify people having a right to a weapon when so many in the US die from those same arms. No other first world country has that violent problem.

Kurke_Aumea · Post by **Kurke_Aumea** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:55 pm

Ahhh, but your missing the best benefit of them all by everyone owning a gun. The smart people use guns to fend off stupid people and the stupid people have a natural tendency to kill each other off. How do you think Youngstown lost its spot atop murder rate list? All of the gang members in Youngstown slowly killed themselves off in the late 90's. Natural selection is a beautiful thing. Unfortunately, the sons and daughters of the crack whores from the 90's are replacing the old gangs in Youngstown. Have no fear, in time they will kill themselves off as well.

Until the world realizes weapons of any sort are unnecessary, this sort of stuff is going to always happen. Frankly, I despise guns and other weapons. They are as outdated as war itself. But, as long as I have to drive through such deplorable neighborhoods as I do just to get to class everyday, I will always contemplate carrying a weapon.

I know, you think I am just perpetuating the spread of gun violence. But then again, I drive through neighborhoods where I could get mugged simply because of the color of my skin. Like I said, it's not the guns but the people with the guns. Perhaps if the people in these neighborhoods had jobs or something to actually live for, they wouldn't have to resort to such cowardly methods. But, that is for another conversation. I think educated gun owners are responsible gun owners. People should be held accountable for their firearms in the way we hold them accountable for drug posession. If it's an illegal drug, they get thrown in jail. Somehow the gun charge always gets dropped... Then again, U.S. jails are overflowing as it is. Most of those inmates are simply there on possession charges.

Yes, I understand where you are coming from Lev, but simply banning guns or making our gun laws more strict simply won't do it. Economical and social factors alone are enough to drive up and down gun use. Of course, instead of attempting to solve our economical and social issues, Congress is more concerned about defining marriage as between a man and a woman and whether stem cell research is ethical. I mean, is it me, or aren't there more important things to worry about???

Leviathen · Post by **Leviathen** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 12:42 am

Kurke_Aumea wrote:Congress is more concerned about defining marriage as between a man and a woman and whether stem cell research is ethical. I mean, is it me, or aren't there more important things to worry about???

Well said. Banning research on somethign like that doens't make sense to me... the scientists just move to another country. I forgot what the program was but the Canadian government refused to fund it, so all the scientists move to the US and study it there... with stem cell research the Canadian government funds it so heavily here that you have entire labs with people from all over the world... banning research that another economically prosperous nation allows is rather pointless.

I do not agree with your theory that natural selection is an answer. And I just don't see how you can't realize that the acceptance of guns in the US is problem. I mean, the application process to get a weapon in the US and Canada is near identical, the only thing is you have to have a valid reason for owning a gun (such as hunting, self defense not valid), it is not a right to own a gun here, and that makes all the difference. People view guns completely differently accross the border... even on direct sides of the border because of that difference in political attitude from the beginning.

Waucod Meesman · Post by **Waucod Meesman** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 7:16 am

don't make me get out my belt!!!

Kurke_Aumea · Post by **Kurke_Aumea** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:00 am

Leviathen wrote:I do not agree with your theory that natural selection is an answer.

I wasn't entirely being serious about natural selection in that manner being the answer. But, that is what happens around these parts (well, not where I live. We don't break out guns because someone scuffed our Nike's. This all takes place on the East side of Y-town.) Honestly, the only way to change America's view on guns is to raise a generation and doesn't see the need as a citizen to own a gun. You will never change the beliefs of people old enough to vote on the topic.

You say the fact that we consider it our right to own guns is the problem. Not really. You have a law which basically grants you the right to own a gun. It's all just stated differently. The difference (as you pointed out), is that Americans think that since we have a right to own a gun, we HAVE to own one. So, just because we can automatically means we have to??? It's a logic flaw that people just don't understand. Unfortunately, they'll never realize it.

Apium · Post by **Apium** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 12:05 pm

Leviathen wrote:First off, there wouldn't BE so many guns manufactured and end up stolen and used as illegal guns if the USA didn't give its citizens the right to arms. That is not just a "what if" statement, look at european countries. There aren't as many illegal guns simply because legal guns aren't manufactured in the same quantaty as they are in North America.

But I do agree with you that the legality of guns is souly to blame on the high rate of crime... i would point the finger more towards social issues, but thats another topic.

America was formed in the wake of a revolution. There was a massive fear of government. If guns had been illegal, there would be no America.

Apium · Post by **Apium** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 12:12 pm

Leviathen wrote:
Erougn wrote:Don't worry gesro, we have proven our point with GB, and if Canada was gonna be the 51st state we'd already have it.

And don't confuse context with content. The second amendment wasn't written to protect us from a half assed invasion from an empire in decline, it was written to provide us the freedom to defend our land from ANY tyrant.

waitwaitwait. okay... first off, war of 1812 was started by the US, they were trying to invade Canada and they failed, it was not an invasion of GB to the US, they were pretty caught up in Europe with Napoleon, they didn't really care too much what was happening here.

Wrong. The U.S. declared war correct, but they were provoked. The British navy was impressing any American sailor of British descent even if they were rightful citizens of the United States. They attacked an American warship and kidnapped sailors from her crew. Is that not a good enough reason to go to war? If it isn't then I'll also add that America had proclaimed themselves NUETRAL. America put up with impressment and illegal seizure of her ships by Britain and France for over ten years before declaring war. Not to mention the other reasons of the British forts still present on American soil, and the British encouragement of Indian raids. Why did we invade Canada? In the beginning of the war we didn't, we targeted British forts on the border of Canada and the US. When we attempted to invade Canada our soldiers refused to fight because they said they hadn't signed on to fight a war in Canada. Why were we ordered to invade Canada in the first place? Because James Madison and Thomas Jefferson believed capturing Canada only required the simple act of marching.

Erougn · Post by **Erougn** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 2:08 pm

So sorry to hijack the thread. As somebody who bitches about it I shoulda started another post.

Back on Topic

I have the Vader voice helmet and a few MR lightsabers. My wife made me a cape and I got the rest of the stuff together. She found some glasses with red lights and I hav an old brown jedi robe she uses to be my jawa sidekick (no she's not a midget, she kneels :-P

). That's how we greet the kids for treats. Some scream and run lol!

Waucod Meesman · Post by **Waucod Meesman** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 10:54 pm

freakin awesome dude!!!

Leviathen · Post by **Leviathen** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:28 pm

Apium wrote:Wrong. The U.S. declared war correct, but they were provoked. The British navy was impressing any American sailor of British descent even if they were rightful citizens of the United States. They attacked an American warship and kidnapped sailors from her crew. Is that not a good enough reason to go to war? If it isn't then I'll also add that America had proclaimed themselves NUETRAL. America put up with impressment and illegal seizure of her ships by Britain and France for over ten years before declaring war. Not to mention the other reasons of the British forts still present on American soil, and the British encouragement of Indian raids. Why did we invade Canada? In the beginning of the war we didn't, we targeted British forts on the border of Canada and the US. When we attempted to invade Canada our soldiers refused to fight because they said they hadn't signed on to fight a war in Canada. Why were we ordered to invade Canada in the first place? Because James Madison and Thomas Jefferson believed capturing Canada only required the simple act of marching.

Canada = Britain at that point, so fighting British North America(area now known as Canada) was the same as fighting Britain at that point. Secondly, there were a few more people than just Jefferson who believed in Manifest destiny and believed that Canada should be a part of the United States, probably a more prodimant cause of the war than the search of a ship. US tried to invade, US lost the war, the end.

Kurke_Aumea wrote:You say the fact that we consider it our right to own guns is the problem. Not really. You have a law which basically grants you the right to own a gun. It's all just stated differently. The difference (as you pointed out), is that Americans think that since we have a right to own a gun, we HAVE to own one. So, just because we can automatically means we have to??? It's a logic flaw that people just don't understand. Unfortunately, they'll never realize it.

Did you just tell me that I was wrong in saying that is the fact that American's consider it their right to own a gun, thus too many own guns... the problem is that they consider it there right? I was rather confused by that.

Kurke_Aumea · Post by **Kurke_Aumea** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:41 pm

The difference between a law and a right is simply how they are viewd by a people. The second amendment is basically a law that gives Americans the right to bear arms. It's not the right to bear arms that is the problem. It is the perception that since we have the right to bear arms, we are automatically required to. That would be flawed logic, especially when compared to the Canadian viewpoint. Canadians have the ability to own guns, but just because they can they don't all feel the need to. Somehow, in the U.S., it is different.

How about this, Canada is just the neighbor in the apartment upstairs who doesn't like loud noises??? Sorry, just teasing.

Just because we have the right to do something, doesn't mean we have to. I mean, let's say there was a law granting me the right to parade around nude in public. Just because it would be my right, that doesn't mean I should strip down and go streaking. Seriously, only my gf wants to see that... I think...

Leviathen · Post by **Leviathen** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 5:53 am

haha "...I think"
and you just know people would do it simply to excercise their right.

Ri'Me · Post by **Ri'Me** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 5:54 am

Happy Halloween everyone! /ducks the incoming bullets

Apium · Post by **Apium** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 9:18 am

Leviathen wrote:
Apium wrote:Wrong. The U.S. declared war correct, but they were provoked. The British navy was impressing any American sailor of British descent even if they were rightful citizens of the United States. They attacked an American warship and kidnapped sailors from her crew. Is that not a good enough reason to go to war? If it isn't then I'll also add that America had proclaimed themselves NUETRAL. America put up with impressment and illegal seizure of her ships by Britain and France for over ten years before declaring war. Not to mention the other reasons of the British forts still present on American soil, and the British encouragement of Indian raids. Why did we invade Canada? In the beginning of the war we didn't, we targeted British forts on the border of Canada and the US. When we attempted to invade Canada our soldiers refused to fight because they said they hadn't signed on to fight a war in Canada. Why were we ordered to invade Canada in the first place? Because James Madison and Thomas Jefferson believed capturing Canada only required the simple act of marching.

Canada = Britain at that point, so fighting British North America(area now known as Canada) was the same as fighting Britain at that point. Secondly, there were a few more people than just Jefferson who believed in Manifest destiny and believed that Canada should be a part of the United States, probably a more prodimant cause of the war than the search of a ship. US tried to invade, US lost the war, the end.

Actually no one "won." When it came time for the peace conferences both sides realized they had no real advantage. Everyone controlled what they controlled before the war. Also Jefferson was a pussy Republican, it was actually Madison and Monroe who were pushing the war. The british happened to be in Canada so thats where we attacked. You are correct in that the Republicans believed that European nations should have no influence in the New World, but that is not what stimulated the invasion of Canada. That is what stimulated the invasion of Florida.

I don't know how you say the US lost a war when the only thing that happen in the peace treaty was a declaration of status quo ante bellum. The issue of a border between Canada and the US was refered to a committee. How is that losing the war?