Patryn

[Ramd]

Patryn unfortunately decided to remove himself from RID after my guild wide mail regarding appropriate language for chat was received. I'll repost the mail here if needed. Basically what precipitated this was a conversation between Jo'taur, Artimaes, and a few others in voice chat. The term "faggot" and "fag" was used several times, and at one point one member made some vague references to certain sex acts. I issued a warning in chat, which was ignored. A few minutes later, I received some comments from other RID members about the state of voice chat. I decided to send out a mail as a blanket reminder.

Its unfortunate that Patryn chose to remove himself, but if he feels he can't control his mouth and speak civilly, I don't think we really want him in RID anyway.

[Apauck]

I would like to make it clear that Patryn left because he did not want to be censored in his speech. He was not the one making any profane language to my knowledge.

I feel that if someone felt upset at the language being spoken, that they should bring it up to the offending member and maybe a council member as a moderator. We are all mature adults and simple profanity should not offend us. I do not think though that we should use it but if it gets out that we should be mature enought and thck sking enough not to be upset at remark.

The way it was handled nearly caused a mass exodous of guild members. I had other members claiming that they were going to leave and I managed to stop them. Many felt that the mail was directed at them even thought the language was general. I know that we don't want to offend other members, but we can't cater to every whim and we must be careful that making one person better won't cause 5 to 10 others to leave.

P.S. The remarks at hand were directed at George Lucas and not at any member of the guild.

[Farik]

Your are an idiot and a massive faggot ramd, that is all.

I wasn't even launched into SWG when I got the drama IED.

I also get tired of being the only engaged council member dealing with actual guild problems for the last 2 weeks as they present themselves and no I'm not talkign about "my pussy hurts cause johnny said faggot" get tired of explaining the same thing for 4 days on end.

Two things I wont tolerate,
poor leadership
hypocritical leadership

Seeing both for a bit now and you know where pak and I got an earful last night form the members. They are not impressed much either.

Got a problem with it, kick me!

[Ramd]

Your are an idiot and a massive faggot ramd, that is all

I'm not going to get into an online spat with you, Farik. I did what I thought was the right thing to do. I have no illusions that this is a popularity contest. I'm doing my job.

Yes, I agree that people need to have thick(er?) skins. But at the same time, you need to really watch things like this. There was nothing offending or aimed at a specific member in my mail, and if someone really takes exception to what I've said, then I'm rather confused. The gist of it was, "come on, guys, lets be a little more respectful."

What this comes down to, is what sort of environment do we want to provide for our members? Everyone pays 15 bucks a month to come here and have some fun. Believe me when I say that what happened is an issue. Faggot is a slur. You can not argue that it isn't in American culture. Yes, "fag" can mean a cigarette. In England. The majority of our members are not British. Here, its a word that is just as offensive as "nigger" is.

Lexx, and Arev, as you know, I was an officer in a guild on Kettemoor for over four years. We had members who used similar language quite frequently. However, we never did anything about it. Well, one day, a veteran member of the guild left. He was gay, but nobody knew. You don't know who is around. I can't say that enough. Our goal as Councilmen is to provide an environment where everyone can have fun. If we don't do that, we're neglecting our jobs.

I understand that a lot of our members are current or ex-military. I understand that people in the military use language that is maybe a bit more extreme than most people. I have several family members in Iraq and Afghanistan right now, so I know. Having said that, this isn't the military. We don't have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy here.

So, I understand the concerns of the people here, but I stand by my actions, and I believe it was the right thing to do.

[Ramd]

I'm just going to say, I think everyone needs to calm down and take a step back. Farik, if I was short/dismissive with you in the other thread then I'm sorry. I should have been more tactful.

Yelling at each other isn't going to help things. So lets be civil, get a good night's sleep, and talk about this in the morning.

Edit: I'm under no illusions that I'm perfect either. I make mistakes just as much as the next guy. If people want an apology or something from me, fine, I will do that. But what I said stands. Believe me, I know that you can never completely stop that stuff from being said. But you still have to try.

[Apauck]

Ok, there is the issue of the fact that some feel they cannot speak their minds with out the language police breathing down their neck. There is also more issues at hand than just this. I have sent Lexx a very detailed message about all that I have been told is wrong currently.

[Ramd]

Ok, there is the issue of the fact that some feel they cannot speak their minds with out the language police breathing down their neck. There is also more issues at hand than just this. I have sent Lexx a very detailed message about all that I have been told is wrong currently.

I don't know how people could have interpreted it like that. No, there is no language police, there never will be. The mail said, "C'mon guys, lets not use slurs!!" They can say "fuck" as much as they want, I don't really care. Lets not use words that single out a group for discrimination though. I mean, if someone said "nigger" or "wet-back" would we even be having this discussion? Faggot is just as potentially hurtful, but much more insidious.

[Ramd]

Ok, there is the issue of the fact that some feel they cannot speak their minds with out the language police breathing down their neck. There is also more issues at hand than just this. I have sent Lexx a very detailed message about all that I have been told is wrong currently.

I don't know how people could have interpreted it like that. No, there is no language police, there never will be. The mail said, "C'mon guys, lets not use slurs!!" They can say "fuck" as much as they want, I don't really care. Lets not use words that single out a group for discrimination though. I mean, if someone said "nigger" or "wet-back" would we even be having this discussion? Faggot is just as potentially hurtful, but much more insidious.

EDIT: And I mean, come on, the no slurs thing has always been a rule here.

[Farik]

Ok going to be nice here and just say that pak and I fielded a lot of stuff from members tonight and the guild nearly asploded over it on the RP side. Everyone here needs to remember doing this is a service to the membership, not a service to ourselves.

Let’s talk about failure since Ramd brought it up. The Olympics was known at one time as 16 days of glory. Well my last 16 days have been 16 days of drama bombs one after the other to the point where I cannot even do my primary reason for playing SWG, yes role playing. Doing it all on my own and trying not to step on toes. Well I'm gonna stomp on some toes now.

Ramd , it is NOT a department of defense issue and really you making it one annoys the hell out of me. You picked the wrong battle to fight. You know I cover down for 3 gay soldiers in my company and Patryn for 1 gay soldier? Do you know I have kept the secrets of a transgender community member for a lot of years…no you don’t. You know the member that uses the so-called offensive term the most is a civilian with not a day of military time? RL comes first and I don’t dispute that, but know what you are talking about first.

yeah I'm reds replacement I know, new man here. With 14 years organizational management and one of the old elitists crowd from EU Chim. Its dear and glorious leader in fact. 19+ PAs, several years off and on. You name it I've dealt with it.

[Farik]

Thought about this over night. I am going back to having fun and RPing like I want to. That is all.

[Arev]

Language should always been monitored in its context. For example, shortly after I joined RID I reported a member named -Black- to Lexx for using "nigger" several times over in GuildChat condescendingly. I've heard people use "fag" and "faggot" in GuildChat before and did nothing. Why? Context. "I hate faggots" is different from "This jerk is such a fag". If it's used for shock value, to express yourself, fine, go for it. But, if it's used to demean an innocent party, then we should take issue.

No offense to Ramd, but I believe that part of the offense is that you are the least known Councilman. So, to have him suddenly log in and issue a stern warning would take some active members back.

The next issue we have to deal with is to try to reguild Patryn.

[Ramd]

Language should always been monitored in its context. For example, shortly after I joined RID I reported a member named -Black- to Lexx for using "nigger" several times over in GuildChat condescendingly. I've heard people use "fag" and "faggot" in GuildChat before and did nothing. Why? Context. "I hate faggots" is different from "This jerk is such a fag". If it's used for shock value, to express yourself, fine, go for it. But, if it's used to demean an innocent party, then we should take issue.

No offense to Ramd, but I believe that part of the offense is that you are the least known Councilman. So, to have him suddenly log in and issue a stern warning would take some active members back.

The next issue we have to deal with is to try to reguild Patryn.

And I get that...which is why I sent the general mail as a reminder. I didn't hear anything too bad, so I didn't confront anyone about it.

In my opinion, the 3-4 members who were making a big deal out of it were acting like children. If they aren't mature enough to take something seriously, I really don't know how to address this.

..And Jo'Taur and Patryn can take a hike for all I care. I received several tells and mails from other guild members thanking me for what I did, and expressing their support.

[Farik]

Snap taken by SGT Regalado

Nuff said, thats my blood and chunks of my hand and arm. Being able to say faggot means a lot to me, hell I even have a better appriciation for being called prarie nigger all through school like I was. Bleed for something and it's of greater value.

I don't always agree with Pat or jo'tour but I'll be sure to let Sergeant Pat know he has got a tactical road march (hike) coming up.

I'll take that hike though! Maybe deci or rhiana or someone else can replace me on the council. Kind of tired of the Stigma I get from all this anyhow.

[Arev]

Farik, that attitude isn't helping anything either. /sigh

We can't change the past, all we can do is move forward with what we have learned.

[Farik]

RIght right, moving on, all that needs to be said has been said on the matter by me. Back to business.