What else do we do for Fort Oasis?

Post by **Lexx Yovel** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:22 am

hehe, thanks for the spreadsheet. I am going to work with that for a bit today.

Kurke_Aumea · Post by **Kurke_Aumea** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:02 pm

Figure out how to use it yet????

You know, you can probably cut your costs in half by just eliminating things that don't do anything. You have a theater which really doesn't do anything (thank you devs). How many dual structures do you have??? I thought you had two banks and two of something else. Banks don't have much impact on the treasury, but something else might. Your city specialization is 80k (Improved Job Market, right?). How many terminals and trainers do you have? How many gardens do you have?

I mean, why donate money when you can simply run the place on taxes (or mostly on taxes).

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Feb 01, 2005 8:06 am

We are looking to attract new citizens at the moment and also our own Entertainer. I wouldnt like to see any reduction in our city decorations or structures because it makes the place more attractive and a nicer place to live. I asked Lexx to place a garden outside my large house and I am very pleased with the result , i wasnt aware of the city costs involved in this and , Lexx, if you let me know how much it is I will happily pay for the running costs. I also have my own hospital (making two with Kulioo's) does this cost the city anything to run? (I pay the maintenance)

Kurke_Aumea · Post by **Kurke_Aumea** » Tue Feb 01, 2005 9:38 am

Med centers and cantinas are just like houses, they are player owned not part of the city. Things like the clone center, garage, bank, trainers, mission terminals, and shuttleport are all paid for with the city treasury.

The whole thing I have been arguing with Lexx in this thread about is running a city on taxes alone. It's popular belief that it is almost impossible to run a Rank 3 or higher city on taxes alone. Today, Nar Shadda will become a Rank 3 city. Once we become Rank 3, there will be a 12k-15k weekly surplus and it is all from taxes. And that is with 35 citizens. As more citizens move in, the surplus will increase. With the added surplsu I can place a clone center (20k weekly), various gardens (10k weekls for small, 20k weekly for medium, and 30k weekly for large). I will also be placing streetlamps, fountains, and statues (each is 1.5k weekly).

But, I will not be placing all of these at once. I will be placing them as we can afford them. The most desired things right now in Nar Shadda is a cloning center and streetlamps. To place the clone center, I will either have to wait till we get 40 citizens (5 more citizens and their houses would cover the 20k) or I will have to increase property taxes to 30% till we get 40 citizens (then I would lower it to 25% again).

My citizens all want a beautiful city with decorations and all kinds of city structures. I want the same. In time and as the city can afford them, these structures will be added to the city. Personally, I would rather have all citizens pay taxes to help improve the city, than a small group of people making insane donations to the city. I don't think it is fair to the people who donate money. Plus, why have people donate when you can run a city on taxes alone. It is possible.

But I don't want to pay taxes, we'll just donate everything!!!

The problem I find with this is that if you do just donations, you will get your loyal citizens/guild members who donate millions of credits. Then you will get a larger group who will never donate. How is this fair to those who donated credits?

OK, but we will have taxes and donations!!!

That is fine, but why run the city at a loss when it is possible to run the city with a weekly surplus using taxes??? From the info I have from Lexx, only about 25%-30% of the city budget is made up from taxes. The rest is from donations from either Lexx or a handful of other people. In my eyes, this is a problem. If anything, your taxes should support at least 75% of the budget if not more.

I mean, whoever donates is paying into the city twice.... why??? With proper budget management you can run the city off of taxes and only have people pay once into the city.

Despite what people think, it is possible to run a city on taxes alone and Nar Shadda is doing it. For me and my fellow citizens, we find pride in this. I have yet to see any other city (Rank 3 or higher) run on nothing but taxes, so knowing we can and are doing it gives us that pride.

Fort Oasis can do it to, you just have to want to do it.

(Also, another thing that would work well for Fort Oasis would be a sponsorship program. All gardens, decorations, mission terminals, and skill trainers would be sponsored by citizens of the city. Whoever sponsored one of these thigns would pay for the weekly maintenance of the object in monthly blocks. A trainer costs 1.5k weekly. So, to have the trainer placed for a month, a person would pay 6k to the mayor, who would then donate it to the city. A sponsorship program eliminates much of the overhead associated with all of the excess structures. Of course, such a program takes a lot of work and dedication by the mayor.)

Post by **Lexx Yovel** » Tue Feb 01, 2005 2:58 pm

Gounk wrote:I asked Lexx to place a garden outside my large house and I am very pleased with the result , i wasnt aware of the city costs involved in this and , Lexx, if you let me know how much it is I will happily pay for the running costs.

No need to worry about that. It's not that Fort Oasis cant afford it, it's just that I feel taxes don't do the job they are supposed to.

Kurke_Aumea wrote:You know, you can probably cut your costs in half by just eliminating things that don't do anything. You have a theater which really doesn't do anything (thank you devs). How many dual structures do you have??? I thought you had two banks and two of something else. Banks don't have much impact on the treasury, but something else might. Your city specialization is 80k (Improved Job Market, right?). How many terminals and trainers do you have? How many gardens do you have?

Well Theaters don't hurt the city (Even if they don't do much), nor do Cantinas, or two med centers, because they work like houses. On the contrary, they probobly *help* the city because of the higher property taxes we would get (In theory if they weren't bugged). As for banks, an extra 1.5k was it? Well assuming it's an extra 1.5k, I don't think it would hurt. And although I would like all the trainers we can have, we just have 5 or so, and one of each, mission terminal.

Improved Job Market is indeed costly, but this would make shuttle ticket funds higher if people came into Fort Oasis more, right? And possibly even more citizens will want to join Fort Oasis.

I know you can do the math and probobly get everything to work, but I doubt it'd be the city you had dreamed about.

Kurke_Aumea wrote:But I don't want to pay taxes, we'll just donate everything!!!

The problem I find with this is that if you do just donations, you will get your loyal citizens/guild members who donate millions of credits. Then you will get a larger group who will never donate. How is this fair to those who donated credits?

I may be mistaken, but when I went to Nar Shadaa to see how thing were doing two days ago, I saw an excess of 1mil in the treasury, isn't that the work of donations? :wink:

And you ask whats fair for the people who donated? Well I wish I could give them everything, but if you look at it broadly, they are getting what they wanted by donating in the first place... a good city. Many people may donate just to be nice, but the main reason is because they want their city to be beatiful, and the only way to achieve that is money.

I really wish I could run on just taxes, I really do. But I sincerely doubt that would work. But here's what. When you become a level 3 city, and you run smoothly on just taxes; I will incredibly reconsider the way I run the city :wink:

Kurke_Aumea · Post by **Kurke_Aumea** » Tue Feb 01, 2005 3:58 pm

LexxYovel wrote:I really wish I could run on just taxes, I really do. But I sincerely doubt that would work. But here's what. When you become a level 3 city, and you run smoothly on just taxes; I will incredibly reconsider the way I run the city

Come to Nar Shadda around 11PM or so tonight (forget the exact time). We will be a Rank 3 city. And guess what, as a Rank 3 city, we already have a 12k-15k surplus right off the bat. So, I think it is time you reconsider how you run your little city.

I know you can do the math and probobly get everything to work, but I doubt it'd be the city you had dreamed about.

You are wrong. My city is already everything I have dreamed about. As soon as I can place an order with Bamed, Nar Shadda will have a clone center. As soon as Star' and I get a chance, we will place the med center. And guess what, it is all within our budget that is run completely with taxes!!! Everyday Nar Shadda grows greater and greater and we do it by living within our means. We are not overspending ourselves. We are growing everyday and everyday we gain more credits just through taxes.

I may be mistaken, but when I went to Nar Shadaa to see how thing were doing two days ago, I saw an excess of 1mil in the treasury, isn't that the work of donations?

Yes, that is because of the bugged property taxes (which is believed to be related to the bugged miantenance changes). I asked for donations when I realized the property tax was bugged. Otherwise, the treasury was screwed in two weeks with the money it originally had in it.

You say taxes don't work how they are supposed to. How do you think that? I am running my city within the budget given to us by taxes. What more do you want from taxes? Look, I have given more than enough proof as to how a city can be run using taxes alone and Nar Shadda is living proof of that. If you think that it is impossible to run a city on taxes, then you never have truly tried it.

You say that your citizens want your city to be beautiful and thus you have to rely on donations. Not true. Have you ever taken the time to actually try running your city on taxes??? No, you haven't. And I know that for a fact. How many times did I try to show you how to run Fort Oasis on taxes. You never listened to me. Hey, if you want to dump almost 400k a week into your city treasury, that is fine by me. I am just trying to save you money by showing you how to run a budget right. Yet, at every corner you ignore my suggestions because I might just be right.

Nar Shadda will be Rank 3 tonight. And tomorrow, we will have a surplus (assuming the property tax is working). There are a few differences between Nar Shadda and Fort Oasis, but not nearly as many as you may think. I can remember when Fort Oasis when it was Rank 3 and the money troubles it had. Already Nar Shadda is running better than Fort Oasis did at Rank 3. Imagine what will happen when Nar Shadda reaches Rank 4.

Post by **Lexx Yovel** » Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:09 pm

Okay Kurke, okay. No need to stress over it

This is simply the way I feel about taxes. It's not that I don't listen to you, it's just that after running a city for longer than a year, it just feels like taxes just give me a 100k a week profit or so. And I fail to see how to cut the city budget down when the city hall costs 110k credits alone as a level 4 city.

I know you probobly got angry at my post(s), and just wanted to let go of your anger; so I will refrain from nitpicking at your your statement excessively.

Nar Shadaa is doing better than Fort Oasis was as a level 3. I was the first one to have that statement come out of my mouth. Whether you learned from my mistakes may be the reason, because back in the day Fort Oasis was founded, player cities were just implemented. I never had the time to plan out such city ordeals, because I was still debating whether I could even have a city, or if I could even place it before everyone else placed their own cities (So they wouldn't be too late before the city cap was reached).

I know the way I ran my city may have been a part of the reason you wanted to start your own, but I dont get 400k out of my pocket anymore for the treasury. I feel Fort Oasis is completely fine, but taxes are not. That's all I'm saying.

At least we both have our own cities to deal with. I still wish Nar Shadaa luck with their level 3 city, and we'll see how everything turns out.

Kurke_Aumea · Post by **Kurke_Aumea** » Tue Feb 01, 2005 5:29 pm

LexxYovel wrote:This is simply the way I feel about taxes. It's not that I don't listen to you, it's just that after running a city for longer than a year, it just feels like taxes just give me a 100k a week profit or so. And I fail to see how to cut the city budget down when the city hall costs 110k credits alone as a level 4 city.

I fail to see where this is a reason to not believein taxes. Nar Shadda was raking in over 140k in taxes as Rank 2.

LexxYovel wrote:Nar Shadaa is doing better than Fort Oasis was as a level 3. I was the first one to have that statement come out of my mouth. Whether you learned from my mistakes may be the reason, because back in the day Fort Oasis was founded, player cities were just implemented. I never had the time to plan out such city ordeals, because I was still debating whether I could even have a city, or if I could even place it before everyone else placed their own cities (So they wouldn't be too late before the city cap was reached).

Lexx, Fort Oasis sat at rank 3 for at least 6 months, if not longer. Your excuse that you never had time to plan out things seems a little weak. In five weeks, Nar Shadda has made Rank 3, has an organized city layout, and does not have any funding problems (except for the every wonderful property tax bug).

I also gave you a link to a wonderful spreadsheet for calculating city budgets. Have you even looked at it??? Have you even played with it to see what you can actually do with your budget??? I just ran some pretty basic numbers on there and with the bare minimum citizens and houses (at your current tax levels) Fort Oasis is pulling in almost 175k in taxes. that is with 55 citizens, 55 small houses, and a med center. I know Fort Oasis has more citizens than that and that there are medium and large houses there to boot. Heck, my numbers don't even account for shuttle tickets or garage fees.

I really wish I could run on just taxes, I really do. But I sincerely doubt that would work. But here's what. When you become a level 3 city, and you run smoothly on just taxes; I will incredibly reconsider the way I run the city

Ready to reconsider yet?

Post by **Lexx Yovel** » Tue Feb 01, 2005 6:30 pm

Kurke_Aumea wrote:Lexx, Fort Oasis sat at rank 3 for at least 6 months, if not longer.

Irrelevant Kurke. That was beyond my control. They cap for level 4 cities was reached, so I could not advance. As soon as another city dropped, we rose up.

Kurke_Aumea wrote:I also gave you a link to a wonderful spreadsheet for calculating city budgets. Have you even looked at it???

I looked at it; I just can't find where on the web page the spread sheet is. You can help me out on that.

Kurke_Aumea wrote:Fort Oasis is pulling in almost 175k in taxes.

I really doubt that. But in either case, that just means we can only use 65k worth of things, that doesn't seem very comfortable.

Garage: 20k
Cloner: 20k
Shuttle: 25k
Total: 65k

Not to mention the bank, trainers, and terminals...

Kurke_Aumea · Post by **Kurke_Aumea** » Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:10 pm

LexxYovel wrote:I looked at it; I just can't find where on the web page the spread sheet is. You can help me out on that.

Its about half way down on the page. Read the page and you will find it.

Once you get it downloaded, open it up and plug in your current tax rates on the Overview sheet. Then plug in 55 for the number of citizens. Flip to the City Income sheet and plug in 55 for small houses and 1 med center. Go back to your Overview sheet. For total income, it should say something around 175k.

The best thing for you to do is to go through and count how many houses you have of each type and plug it into the spreadsheet. Then, plug in all of your structures. Yes, you will find you are overspending, but that is expected. But, you will also see you aren't overspending as much as you think.

I imagine once you go thru and calculate everything, you will see that you are only overspending by about 30%-40%. Heck, if you bump up property taxes to 50%, you will make up most of the difference. Now, before you respond to this saying how Nar Shadda and Fort Oasis are two different beasts, work the numbers in the spreadsheet and you will see how right I am about taxes. I know when you crunch the numbers the first time, you will that Fort Oasis is over budget. But, you will also see its not as much as you think. Crunch the numbers fully next time before you criticize taxes.

Also, you will see that the number of citizens and number of houses has a drastic effect on the amount of money your city brings in. If I were you, I would really encourage as many people to upgrade to mediums as possible. I think mediums bring in about 50% more maintenance than smalls. Yes, I know you are limited for space, but you can always play with parts of the city layout to see what you can make work.

Post by **Lexx Yovel** » Tue Feb 01, 2005 8:43 pm

Thanks for pointing out where it is. I will plug in more the info. Fortunately Fort Oasis has been getting more mediums, so I will put those in. I still hope those devs fix all the taxes, then I may get the sensation of an overall profit for my city. Will be back with the spreadsheet info soon. Just going to get some of the house numbers and what not.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Feb 01, 2005 9:05 pm

Long live Nar Shadda!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Feb 01, 2005 9:08 pm

kurke come drop a house on my enemies in the roleplay thread :lol:

jk
Long live Shadda & Oasis! Long live the Empire!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Feb 01, 2005 9:14 pm

Too bad I'm already dead in that thread... :roll:

Kurke_Aumea · Post by **Kurke_Aumea** » Tue Feb 01, 2005 10:03 pm

It is believed that the buggy property tax is directly related to the bugged maintenance. Since houses weren't pulling any maintenance at all, the property tax was pulling 10% of nothing, which equals... well... nothing.

Hopefully, if they fix the maintenance, the property tax will be automatically fixed.